Greg Randolph – Heroes and Icons w/ Tal Smith

Houston City Beat is pleased to showcase a Houston Area Podcaster, Mr. Greg Randolph with the Heroes and Icons Podcast. We encourage you to have a listen to their fifth episode where he speaks with the iconic Tal Smith.

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Welcome and thank you for joining us today on the Heroes and Icons podcast. I’m your host, Greg Randolph. Please find me on Instagram at Heroes and Icons Podcast and on Twitter at Heroes icons Pod. Please rate, share and review the show. And thank you for doing so.

Once more, we have a special guest with us today. I’m honored again to have longtime and revered baseball executive Houston Astros Hall of Famer, class of 2022 Tal Smith on the Heroes and Icons podcast today. Our show was brought to you by my friends at Houston City Beat, and there’s just something about that beat they can be found on Facebook at Houston City Beat or on the web at HoustonCityBeat.com.

How are you? Tal? I hope, traffic was a lot better for you today coming in. I’m fine, Greg. Nice to visit with you again. Yes, sir. Yes sir. Well, thank you very much for being on the show with me a second time. And this is a part two of a two-part episode with Mr. Smith. So here we go. Uh, well, let me start, let me, uh, let me please, uh, allow me to jump back to the, [00:01:00] to the New York Yankees days from, uh, 1973 to 1974.

And so, so my question here is were you able to see any of the construction on original Yankee Stadium in those two years when you, uh, not really, uh, Greg, by the time I joined the Yankees, and as I recall, that was probably November of 1973, and, uh, by that time, uh, the renovation was well underway, uh, mm-hmm.

I did know the architect, uh, that the Yankees had employed that was working on it, and I talked to him from time to time and, uh, uh, it stands on occasion. Uh, he’d, he’d shown me something on the plans of it and so on. But, uh, from an actual construction or renovation standpoint, that was well underway and really didn’t have too many occasions, uh, to get to Yankee Stadium.

As a matter of fact, the only one I really remember is, after we had made the decision to return to Houston, I packed up the fam, stands in our station wagon. And, we made one last trip up to Yankee Stadium to sort of say, you know, cuz if we had stayed, that would’ve been our future home.

We never got to enjoy that. I love the Yankee legacy and, and it was an honor to work for them, but I never really got to work in Yankee Stadium, . Sure. Okay. Well, didn’t I, I knew that you most certainly must have officed out of Shea and, uh, d uh, during those years, during the renovation of Yankee Stadium, uh, the, uh, Yankees had made arrangements, uh, to play in Shea Stadium, that, uh, to share that with the Mets.

But we actually officed in the, what was called the Parks Administration Building, which was a short walk from Shea Stadium. And that was the offices, uh, that had been used, uh, during the World’s Fair in New York, which I believe was in the mid 1960s, 19 [00:03:00] 64, 65, something close to that. Mm-hmm. and, uh, Walnut.

And that had been sort of the headquarters building for them. And it was just a short walk, uh, from there to the ballpark. And, uh, one would actually actually park our cars at parks administration building, go to the game and then come back to the, to the office and, and, uh, so on. So from a office standpoint, we spent time in Shea, but just for the ball games.

Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. I figured it must have been something, something along those lines. It wouldn’t necessarily make a whole lot of sense to maybe office out of a large construction site like that, unless it was just unavoidable. Right? Sure. So, so let me ask you about, about those teams that you were a part of in, in 73 and 74 with the Yankees and about some of those, some of those players.

Did you, um, what was your thought? On the, the roster construction at, at, at that, at that time with, with free agency on the, on the horizon there? Well, George, uh, George Steinberger had bought the Yankees at [00:04:00] the start of the 1973 season, and, uh, the Yankees were from a. From a playing standpoint, really in a state of distress, , uh, they were not very good.

Uh, they, uh, and, uh, one, one that really, really didn’t hit with the exception of Bobby Mercer, I guess didn’t really, and, and Thurman Munson was coming along, but that, that, that, that was, they didn’t have a lot of marquee players and, and they weren’t very good. And, uh, so, uh, since Steinbrenner brought in Gabe Paul, and they made a lot of changes during the 1973 season, I joined them at the end of that, as I said, I think it was November of 1973, right?

Uh, and, uh, but by that time they had Al Al, they had already made some changes. They had acquired, uh, Greg Nettles, uh, by that time, shortly after I joined them at the end of the 73, uh, season. Uh, as a matter, matter of fact, [00:05:00] I, I’ve, I can recall this distinctly. Uh, they, uh, they. Uh, made a deal with Kansas City to acquire Lou Pinella.

Right. And that, that was a very key move. Uh, they, they got pinella in exchange for, uh, exchange for Lindy McDaniel. And, uh, I was coming home, uh, for, uh, uh, for, for the Christmas holidays with spend that with my family. We’re still located here in Houston. And I actually had to meet, uh, Lindy, someplace along I 45, and I forget where he was going, but I had to get him to sign, uh, sign the disposition, uh, paper.

So I actually got a chance to say goodbye to him. But that, but those, uh, those were key moves that had been made. And then early in 19 74, 1 1, 1 of the more dramatic, uh, moves was the big trade with Cleveland, where, uh, where the Yankees sent five pitchers, as I recall, to Cleveland for Chris Chambliss.

Mm-hmm. and Dick Tidrow. And. One not. And the, uh, one, one [00:06:00] not the trade. Uh, the trade was not well received initially, certainly by players and even fans. How can you, how can you send off five pitchers we need pitching and so on. Well, it, it was a good move. Chambliss Chambliss was a key part of, uh, the Yankee success in future, future years.

Dick Tidrow played an important role and so on. So tho those, those were some of the big moves. Uh, later on, I guess the, the most controversial move came at the end of the 1974, uh, season. And I recall this cuz I was with Gabe when we, uh, went out to visit Horace Stoneham in, uh, San Francisco. Discussed the possibility of acquiring Bobby Bonds at that time, uh, for, for Bobby Mercer.

Right. You know, Mercer had followed in the footsteps of DiMaggio and mantle and so on. Mm-hmm. , and I think it was unfair to Bobby had actually put too much pressure on him, hard to live up, [00:07:00] uh, to those expectations. Whatnot. Uh, but we, we thought, uh, we thought Bobby Bonds was quite a talent and, uh, whatnot.

So that, that was another key move made at the end of the 1974 season. Uh, there was a lot of roster turnover. Right. And why not? But I think, I think it turned out to be, uh, pretty successful. The, uh, club came very close to winning in 1974. Uh, and in 1976, I did win . They, they did. And they had, they had, uh, catfish owner that came over in 1975.

Right. If I, if I have that right. Were, were you with the Astros at that, at that time? Did were, did you try to get him to Houston? Uh, no, I, I, uh, I was with the Yankees, uh, uh, catfish became a free agent at the end of the 1974. Right. And, uh, I can recall we had the press conference, if I recall correctly, at our offices at the Park Administration Building.

Okay. As I said, close to Sha Stadium, and I [00:08:00] believe that was New Year’s Eve of 1974. So Catfish became a, became a a, a, uh, a key component of the 1975 and subsequent teams. Sure, sure. Very good. So, so I wanted to kind of follow up on that and just, um, and ask kind of about the, about the philosophy of, of roster cons construction again with, you know, what, at that time, so 75, you come over to the Astros.

Was it, so my question then, is it, would it have been a good move to have signed a, a large free agent like Catfish Hunter at the, kind of, at the outset of a, of a rebuild, or was it, was it a better situation to, to, to not have a big free agent and not have, have maybe some of that pressure at the, out at the outset for, for expectations and then to build that.

Well, there really wasn’t a choice because when I came back, uh, to the Astros in August of [00:09:00] 1975, uh, that was under the auspices of the two credit companies, GE Credit and Ford Motor Credit. And they had, uh, taken over direction of the club, uh, one of the boards, so to, so to speak, uh, because the, because of the indebtedness by the club to.

Uh, they were not in this for the long haul. They were just wanted to recoup their loans and whatnot and wanted to see, you know, wanted to, wanted to see the club, uh, be able to continue, uh, but not by putting a lot of money into it. And we had what really was, uh, a zero base budget, so to speak. Every, every dollar that, uh, we spent, uh, you had to justify and had to come from some other source.

So from that standpoint, we didn’t have the financial discretion to go after free agents. Uh, the 1975 Astros had finished 43 and a half games out of first place. It was [00:10:00] 64 and 90. Wow. Uh, record. And uh, so obviously when you, when you, when you’ve got a club of, with that kind of a record, uh, there’s probably, that probably signifies there’s a lot of improvement that has to be made.

And we weren’t gonna do it by making a splash and going out and signing one free agent. We didn’t have the funds to do that, and I didn’t think that was a. Uh, instead, I felt that what we had to do was to rebuild. I know that’s not a popular term sometimes, but, uh, that, that’s just facing reality. Uh, we had to get younger and we had to get less expensive if we could save money and, uh, and player payroll by, uh, trading off older, more expensive players and rebuilding with younger.

And less expensive players. That meant there was more money to ha be perhaps to be spent on scouting and player [00:11:00] development and other aspects of the operation. So that, that’s the course that we, uh, that we chose. And over the years, or a number of fine players that I knew very well from my earlier days with the Astros, uh, who had, uh, played for the club and rendered, uh, very, very good service, uh, for several years that we had, uh, that we had to dispose of, or we did dispose of.

I mean like, you know, uh, St. Doug Rader, right. Uh, being, being one of them, Roger Metzger and, and so on. But we did this, uh, because we felt that was. Course, uh, that we had to follow if we were gonna be successful. And, you know, it sometimes takes, takes a long time. I mean, we went from, from 43 and a half games outta first place in 1975, uh, to contending for the pennant in 1979 and in 1980, winning, winning the division.

So, so from that, uh, standpoint, that was, that was the philosophy or the, [00:12:00] or the, uh, course and, uh, you know, we, uh, we had to go out. And acquire in a lot of cases, uh, players that were, uh, really not well known to the public or to the media. I, I think if players like, uh, art, how, and Denny Walling and so on, and Denny Walling was actually on the disabled list at Oakland when we acquired him.

He had a, he had a fractured wrist and. Uh, at, at, at that time. And, uh, we, uh, we had a veteran outfielder we had acquired from the Dodgers, uh, that had just been with us a short time. And Charlie Finley had interest interest in him. Oh, it was Willie Crawford? Yes. And, uh, Charlie Finley had interest in him, and Crawford wasn’t somebody that really fit into our long term, uh, scheme of things.

So, uh, and, uh, you know, he, uh, saying, he mentioned several names that didn’t have any [00:13:00] interest. And I guess we asked about Walling and he said, well, you know, off our scouting reports from Pryor Service. And he said, well, he’s on the disabled, you know, and I, and I said, that’s all right. Well, you know, we’ll after, Found out more about the injury, you know, we went ahead and did that.

Uh, art. Art, how, uh, art, how was, uh, sort of buried at, uh, at, uh, Pittsburgh, uh, Walnut, not, had, had not been able to crack into the starting lineup and, and why not? We got art. And as a matter of fact, I think we, I think when we first acquired him, we even sent him out to AAA for a little bit of time before we brought him, brought him back and made some other changes.

I think that was when we traded Raider and that. Third base. For, for, for art or for Enos or Enos? Cabbel. Yep. Yep. So, so, so in 1980 then Joe Morgan and o and Ryan were, were brought in at, at that time as the big splash free agents, and it was, it was that time in the development of the team where, where that was, that was the right [00:14:00] time to bring those guys in.

Right. And that was a different ownership by that time. Right. Uh, the, uh, stand of two credit companies had sold the club to John McMullen. Mm-hmm. and his partners and, uh, one, so we were no longer under the same restraints that we had been from a budget standpoint. Uh, one not, uh, St. Ryan obviously, uh, was a, uh, was a, was a key free agent, a lot of interest in, in Nolan.

And, uh, well now we sort of sensed, uh, that he would like to return. I’d like to return to Texas, his home being in, in Alvin. And uh, I had actually tried to acquire Nolan on several occasions when he was with the Angels. And I thought at one time we, I think at the end of the 19 70, 78 season, I thought we just might’ve had a deal done with Buzzy Povey.

Mm-hmm. and, uh, his thing. I left the winter meetings and I was waiting on, waiting on buzzer to get back and confirm the deal. [00:15:00] And, uh, one of his aids. Came to me and said, uh, he’s not gonna do it. He changed his mind. So anyway, so Stan Nolan. Nolan stayed with the Angels and became a free agent in 1979. Uh, John McMullen, the owner of the club, wanted to pursue him, uh, wanted to make the splash.

From a marketing standpoint, I wanted to do it from a, from a, from a, from a player standpoint, , ob, obviously Nolan one of the greatest pitchers of all time. And what he could, uh, add to add to our, add to our rotation and and so on. Um, Sam Morgan, it was a somewhat different situation. Uh, Joe had, uh, had a great career at, at, uh, Cincinnati had become a free.

and, uh, he was still available fairly late in the free agent process. And I, I forget the exact chronology. I, I want to say this was after the Christmas holidays. We were into the first part of the [00:16:00] year and spring trainings approaching and so on. Joe was represented by Tom Rich with Tom. Tom was an agent that I had known for a number of years.

We had a great relationship. He represented a number of our players, including JR and, uh, Ennis, Cabbel and uh, and others. And, uh, Well not, and uh, Tom and I would talk frequently even if there wasn’t a particular negotiation, just sort of exchanging industry information and, uh, in one of our conversations, the possibility of Joe Morgan returning here, cuz he hadn’t gone on the other place, he was still out on the market.

Yeah. And, uh, if, if there was gonna be something that he was particularly interested in or somebody that wanted to really make him a big deal, that likely would’ve already transpired, right? It hadn’t. Uh, so, uh, yeah, I, I, I thought there were some, uh, some things that, uh, that we would have to discuss to make sure [00:17:00] Joe was coming com, that he was comfortable coming back here right.

In whatever his role might be, because he was not the, uh, the same caliber, the same stature player that he had been, say five, five or six years earlier. So we arranged a meeting. Uh, Tom and Joe Morgan came down. Uh, uh, I had Bill Verden, our manager, fly down from Springfield, Missouri. And, uh, so the four of us could meet and, uh, and, uh, and discuss all the, all the parameters.

Not, not necessarily the financial aspects, but Joe, how are you going to react if you’re not in the starting lineup? How are you going to react, uh, if, if, uh, if, uh, uh, if your pinch hit for or pinch run? I’m not saying these things are gonna happen, but what, you know, right. Because I think that was an important aspect.

We had a. Fairly well set club, uh, by [00:18:00] this time. Right. And, uh, is that Cabbel was at, at third, Craig Reynolds. At, at Short, art Howell was, uh, playing first. Uh, Raphael Landy, who we had acquired from Los Angeles, had done a good job. And, uh, so they said there was some question as to how Joe might fit and what his role.

And we didn’t wanna sign somebody and have a dissatisfied player, particularly somebody that was of, of hall of fame caliber, right? It’s important for the clubhouse, uh, clubhouse, chemistry and atmosphere that you, that you not have disruptions. Not that Joe would create ’em, but you didn’t want somebody else to be creating them.

Right. And, uh, one, not so, uh, uh, we, uh, the four of us talked and then, and then we, and then, uh, and then we broke and Tom and I sat separately for dinner and Bill Verden and Joe Morgan sat together and they, and, and talked about things. Obviously we worked it out and Joe became a key part of the [00:19:00] 1980 club from the standpoint of its leadership and his on the field contributions.

Was, was he brought in to, to possibly be a player manager at, at that, at that time? Was, was there any No. Was there was no talk of Bill stepping aside any thought or suggestion to, to my knowledge, certainly nothing that, that Tom Rich. and I discussed, and nothing that Joe and I ever discussed, that, that, that, that, that was not, as far as I know, Joe wanted to continuous playing his playing role.

I didn’t know whether he had an interest in managing or, or, uh, or, or not. As it, it turned out he went in other directions at a very successful career as a broadcaster, but that was never a consideration. He was brought in as a player on a one year basis to provide whatever he could to help the team and, uh, particularly for, for his experience and his leadership and.

Excellent. Excellent. Very good. And that was, that was part of my [00:20:00] understanding or maybe misunderstanding that, that I had heard that on some secondhand information, so I wasn’t, I wasn’t sure if that was, people may have speculated, but, uh, that was, that was never that I, that was nothing I ever. Heard, discussed, or that I discussed or envisioned and why?

Not as far as I was concerned, bill, bill Verden was the manager and was, could have continued to be the manager for says for as long as possible. Unfortunately, I, I left after, after 80, bill continued on for 81 and, uh, then, uh, then the new, uh, new management, uh, Al Rosen, uh, uh, made a change during the 80.

Season, but that, that was never anything that we had contemplated. Gotcha. Gotcha. Very good. So, so you brought, you brought in these, you know, as, as we discussed, you brought in, you know, the, the art house and the, and the Denny Wallings and, and everyone else. But I wanted to ask you in, in regards to, to the 1980 nlcs with, with, with the [00:21:00] roster construction of, of both the Astros and, and the Phillies and the, the Phillies, unfortunately, ultimately prevailing in that, in that series, what, what really made the difference for, for, for them in that series one run

So the, the, uh, the, uh, the, the eighth inning where they, of, of game five, where they scored five runs and we came back and titled up and then, then they pushed over a run in the 10th inning. It was a very close, close, uh, series. As, as, as we’ve discussed, I think, uh, the last, last four games win it, uh, Stan win extra innings and.

and, uh, one it. As far as, uh, as far as differences between the, between the clubs, uh, hard, hard, hard to tell. I mean, said, by that time, we, we had more experience. We had, uh, we had crews in Sudan. Were, were, were, could be considered experienced players at that time. And, and art. How, and Inni Cabbel by that time [00:22:00] had, had been regulars for, for, uh, for some time.

Uh, uh, one of the Phillies, uh, had some veterans. They had some Hall of Famers and Mike Schmidt and. And, uh, they had, uh, had, uh, Bob Boone, a very, very good and, uh, veteran, veteran catcher and, uh, and Greg Luzinski and Gary Maddox. It was, it was a very good team as far as one being better than the other. Uh, I think if we played that series all over again, uh, one we might have prevailed.

I thought we were for the up, up until the top of the eighth inning of the final game. I thought we were gonna prevail. As I said, you know, anything, anything can happen on any given day. I thought the two clubs were closely matched. Well, and if, and you know what, what I want to be sure that, that my audience knows is that in 1980 the Nlcs was only a five game series.

Right. I think, I think the Astros would’ve certainly prevailed if that was a seven game [00:23:00] series, I suspect so, uh, too. But as I said, four games won Xing so that, that in itself in indicates that the teams were very, you know, uh, you know, very closely, uh, matched a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of key players. Uh, a lot of controversial, uh, calls.

Uh, the, uh, you know, the ball ball hit back to Verne Rule in game four that held that, uh, accounted for a long delay as to whether it was gonna be a one out two outs or three outs on, on the, on the play. Uh, players, uh, getting called out for tagging up and leaving third base too soon. That was a critical run in, uh, for, uh, it stands against the Astros where St.

Gary Woods, uh, was ruled out for leaving third base too early. And, you know, but tho those are, those are, those are very, you know, very close calls and, um, , why not? Uh, if we had that, had it to play over again, I like our chances, but the fills were a very good club and went [00:24:00] on to win the World Series. So, yep, absolutely.

Absolutely. So, so in that, in that season in the, to, to win the division, you know, we, the, the Astros had lost those last three against the Dodgers to force a, a playoff in that, that one game playoff for the, the 163rd game of the season. Right. And, and so, The result of that was not having, having Nero being able to, to start that game.

Yeah. If we’d been, if we’d been able to win, uh, uh, without the playoff, Nero undoubtedly would’ve been the, uh, opening day pitcher for the playoffs. He, he would’ve started game one, but obviously you have to get to the playoffs. So when we, we had the playoff, again, you go to your, you know, to, uh, stand to your best and most available at the, at that time.

So, uh, , so, so Joe started game, game 1 63 and, uh, and, and, uh, and. And won it, the pit pitch [00:25:00] define game. But obviously that was on a Monday. Uh, the playoffs opened in Philadelphia on Tuesday. We flew all night, uh, to get there after celebrating the victory and whatnot. So that, that in itself was, you know, somewhat of a burden on the club.

I mean, one, you know, one that you welcome, but it’s not the ideal arrangement from a standpoint of rest and preparation for, for, uh, you know, for, for, uh, you know, for your first, first post-season, so to speak. Uh, you know, but as it turned out, Ken Forche, uh, started game one of the playoffs and, uh, and why not?

And pitched, pitched very well. I’m trying to recall. He pitched a complete game. He may have, I that was a low, low scoring game. The Phillies, uh, the Phillies won it. Uh, but I, I think it was like three to one or something of that nature. And why not? So, you know, you can’t, you can’t say that that in itself, uh, caused us to, to lose.

Uh, you have [00:26:00] to have, generally have to score more than one run to win. But, uh, uh, uh, you know, but that, uh, but that did affect the rotation. What, what the aftermath would’ve been, would’ve been, I don’t know, as far as match ups force started, game won. Nolan Ryan started game two. We won that. Uh, Niro started game three and we won that.

That was, uh, one to nothing game. Uh, and, uh, game four ver rules started. And Game five Nolan Ryan started, right? Uh, I guess what it did, uh, Niro only got one start in the five game series. Correct. If he had pitched in, uh, if he hadn’t had to, had to pitch on Monday in Game 1 63 to win the, win the division, uh, probably would’ve meant that he would’ve had two starch and Ryan would’ve had two starch and that would’ve obviously helped.

Sure, sure. [00:27:00] So is is, so lemme ask you this. So do you feel as if, as if the team had won that, that game five for the nlcs, do you, do you feel that that, that it changed still would’ve been made at, at your position where, where, where you were concerned? Or was that just something that was Oh, I was, it, is it hard to say?

I think, I frankly think John McMullen would’ve tried to find some way to do it. It, uh, it might have been more difficult, but he didn’t seem to, he, he, he seemed to. He seemed to be surprised. There was a reaction, uh, when he, when he decided to dismiss me anyway. And, uh, why not as to whether, whether winning the World Series would’ve deterred him or not.

I, I don’t know. I mean, here he got an example of the Astros this past year. They would stand winning and the right and the general manager leaving. So if an owner wants to make a change, uh, I think he finds a [00:28:00] way. And McMullen, uh, it was just, uh, the, uh, the two of us really. Uh, Really just didn’t get along.

Uh, it had nothing to do, I don’t think with, with, uh, with what, what the team did on the field. I don’t think that was his measuring stick at all. I think it, uh, I think he just had a difficult time, uh, with the attention not being focused on him. I’ll come out and say that I think, I think he was, uh, I think he was an egomaniac.

I, uh, I thought, uh, it really distressed him to see either Bill Burton, the manager or, or me as a general manager get credit and, um, I’m not, not. Then I think if he had had some way to do this even before the playoffs, he would’ve done it. . Yeah. Gosh, that’s, uh, [00:29:00] I hate that it was that way for you, but I think, I think Ulti do, do you feel like it, like that it, it ultimately worked out for, for you with, with having tow Smith Enterprises and, and going on to, to do some other things?

Uh, yeah, I guess it, uh, did. I mean, I, if, if I’d had my preference at that time, I would’ve preferred to stay with the Astros. But I, if it hadn’t happened, then I don’t think McMullen and I ever could have gotten along. I didn’t like him and he didn’t like me. I guess, I guess it just gets down. I, I think it gets down to that I had great difficulty with, uh, some of his, some of his, uh, views.

He’s not here to defend himself, so I won’t get into a lot of it, but. Sure. I, I just, uh, you know, I, I was, I’ll, I’ll simply point out when, uh, I, I can recall, uh, uh, we were on, uh, we were playing, playing the Phillies or the, or the [00:30:00] Mets and had an off day and McMullen invited, uh, uh, bill Burton and his wife Shirley was with him and my wife Johnny was with me on the trip, invited the four of us, uh, to, to dinner at their home in Montclair, New Jersey on an off day.

And I can recall, uh, being out in his, uh, in his garden in the back, uh, in the afternoon preceding dinner and with, uh, with Bill Verden and McMullin. And I brought up the contract negotiations with, with JR. Richard, you, that was a long, protracted negotiation with, with Tom, Tom Rich. And frankly, at that time, McMullen said, what do you wanna sign him for?

And, uh, I was just, Let it go with that. Fair enough. Fair enough. Absolutely. Well, thank you for, thank you tho tho those, those are the kind of things that really, really, uh, really, really distressed me. I, I, uh, I, I frankly thought he was crude [00:31:00] and rude. Yes, sir. So that, that’s

Very good. Very good. Well, let me, let me move on to, um, to 1981. So you start doing your own arbitration cases for Oakland and a few other teams. And in 1982, you founded, as we discussed, t Smith Enterprises. and you performed consulting services for most every, every major league team. But you, you even handled a couple cases as the sole arbiter, um, where the, where the commissioner had to, had to recuse himself.

Can, can you speak about the, any of those situations or, uh, just generally? Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, with, well, going into a lot of detail. The first one was that, The end of 1981, and there was a dispute between the, uh, major league umpires and major League baseball, or specifically the American League and the National League and when up.

But ob obviously the two leagues fall under the [00:32:00] auspices of the commissioner. Uh, since the commissioner’s office was a party to this, uh, he, uh, you know, oh, and the, and, and the agreement. That the umpires and, and major league baseball had, that any disputes would be settled by arbitration and not the courts.

Uh, so they had this dispute that had to be settled by arbitration. Normally, the commissioner serves as the, as, as the arbitrator, but if he’s an interested party, he has to, he has to excuse or recuse himself. Uh, I, I, I, uh, I, I had a call, uh, from, uh, from the, uh, attorney, the representative for the major league umpires.

at that time. I can recall I was out and I can recall it distinctly. I was out in Arizona watching a full fall league, uh, game with the young prospects and got this call from, uh, Richie Phillips. Was, uh, was the, uh, was was the umpire’s [00:33:00] representative and, uh, Uh, I didn’t know this was coming. And he went on to explain that, uh, that somebody had, uh, suggested me as a possible arbitrator for this and we talked about it.

And so, so anyway, my long story short, I was acceptable to the, to the umpires. And I was acceptable to Major League baseball. Uh, so I served as the arbitrator in that there were a number of, number of issues in this dispute. Uh, there were, there were a handful of them, and I had to consider each one and, and rule on it.

And you ne you know, you ne you know, you know, you never make everybody happy and, uh, something like that. But, uh, you know, I I, I, I thought it, thought it turned out well and then I, I thought the parties felt they got, you know, they got a fair. Uh, the other case came along several years later, uh, probably, uh, 1986 or [00:34:00] 87.

And this involved, uh, an employee of the Major League Scouting Bureau, well, the major league scouting Bureau, again, as operated by Major League Baseball, the commissioner, and so on and so forth. And, uh, this was, this was. Wrongful termination, uh, issued. And, uh, I, I knew, uh, of the, of the people at the Major League Scouting Bureau, I’d had a relationship with them.

And, uh, they, uh, they asked if I would be willing, you know, and I said, well, if it’s acceptable to Major League Baseball, yes. And, uh, obviously I guess my standing at that time with Major League Baseball, you know, off my prior service and the earlier case I had heard, and my, my work and salary arbitration on behalf of the clubs and other, other things that, that was acceptable.

So, again, I, I, I served in that and, you know, again, there’s, you know, many, many, [00:35:00] many different issues within any complaint like that. But those, those, uh, those were the two cases. Well, I mean, really, I guess all you can do in those cases is just hear the, hear the facts and be impartial and make the best decision.

Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. You have to have to view this just like a, just like a jury would, or a, you know, a sense, so to speak and make your own own judgment. There you go. You’re listening to the Heroes and Icons podcast with Craig Randolph.

So, regarding, regarding salary ar arbitration, your and your firm tried upwards of a thousand cases. Um, when you, so my question is, when you, when you represented the team, my, my understanding is that, Is it during that process, you would never, you would never, you know, you would do this on purpose, but you wouldn’t tear a player down.

But rather you, you took all the emotion outta the process and you just presented the, the team’s, the team’s case based on what the player had had done, and then relative to what his peers had. I certainly didn’t, [00:36:00] I certainly did not want a to mean a player. I mean, my, my. My, say my, my years in the game. I have great appre appreciation for, for ev Everybody, uh, based upon their, you know, stands upon their role.

Uh, I viewed arbitration as a means of settling a, uh, an issue. Much, much, uh, much like an arbor, you know, much like the two cases where that I had to arbitrate. Uh, from a, from a salary arbitration standpoint, to me it’s a continuation of the arguments or the dialogue that goes on between a player or his representative and the club during the negotiation stage.

You, uh, you know, the club is going to going to express why they think this is the appropriate salary, and the player’s gonna say why he thinks this is it. And, and there’s some gamesmanship involved when you get to, to the actual numbers in arbitration [00:37:00] because, uh, the arbitrator has to pick. Uh, is now one number or the other.

He can’t, can’t split the baby, so to speak. He can’t, he can’t, he can’t do the midpoint or half halfway. So if the, if the club, if the club offers 500,000 and the player wants 700,000, the arbitrator has to pick either five or seven. He can’t say six. So, so from that, from that standpoint, we, uh, Sam, we approached this as a, as a continuation of the negotiation stage.

And I, I, and I did not feel it was necessary to demean. The player, I would just cite the same things that I would’ve if I had been the general manager of that club. I obviously had a, had a, uh, staff during our, during our heyday when we were representing 13 clubs in arbitration, and one year had 96 cases that were filed.

That didn’t mean we actually went to 96 hearings. Sure. I think of those [00:38:00] 96, we actually tried 25 of them that year. That was sort of the high water mark. Uh, but I, uh, uh, I did not think it was necessary to demean, uh, the player. I, I, I, I think the emphasis goes on, you know, here are players that of similar experience, similar position.

Here’s what they, they have done and what they’re making. Here’s what you have done and what we’re offering, and, you know, and you try to account for the differences and so on. A lot of, you know, a lot of, a lot of study, a lot of work, a lot of, a lot of numbers, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of different ways to present the facts.

Go, goes in and, you know, it, it takes, it takes hours, hours and hours, uh, to, to work up a, uh, stanza case. Uh, over, over the, over the years we. Actually had over, had over a thousand cases that, that were filed that we had to deal [00:39:00] with. Now, you know, most of them, 80 to 80 to 85% of them settle. And uh, why not?

And, uh, why we, we went on and did, as I said, 25 cases one year, some years, a lot of them would settle, depends upon up upon how the, how, how the, how the parties look at it. What, and sometimes the players’ association has a different, different view and a different agenda and whatnot. Uh, you know, I, you know, and a lot of times, and when would’ve a case all worked up due to go at nine o’clock in the morning, the case was settled, eight 30 that morning, and one at the, you know, it depends upon the personal.

Uh, some players would prefer to avoid the process altogether. A few are combative or want to want to, want, wanna see the process or want to, or they feel they’re, they may be playing with house money. I mean, it’s a big, big, big salary. Even if they, even if they lose and if we win, [00:40:00] it’s sort of a bonus, sort of a jackpot.

So that, that sort of mentality goes into it. Uh, clubs on the other hand, uh, don’t want to go cuz they don’t want to put the player through the task in most cases. Right. Uh, cuz they get concerned whether it’s gonna damage the relationship. Right. I don’t think it does. At least in the cases we’ve, we’ve done, uh, over the years.

Uh, you know, we, we, we did, uh, we. We did, uh, many notable players like Bo Jackson and, uh Sure. And, uh, Wade Boggs and Don Mattingly and, uh, and Barry Bonds and, and Brett Saberhagen and, and, uh, Doug Dre back and so on. But, and, uh, I, I’d run into players years later and they would still speak to me and smile and, and kid about it.

And the one that it, it is, Uh, there’s not the animosity that the media and fans sometime attach to it. Uh, one, obviously these [00:41:00] are closed hearings. The media doesn’t get to cover it. I, I, and you know, it stands there, there were undoubtedly other cases where perhaps that same viewpoint hasn’t prevailed, where maybe the sides get a little more aggressive or assertive.

I would try to make our arguments based. Fact, right. And not emotion. And one, and I can only recall two or three cases where I thought the dialogue got a little bit outta hand. And, uh, I, I would, I would submit that in those cases one time it was an agent that. Just tried to attack the club for the way they had handled things and so on.

And I, I, I obviously had to address that and Sure. And, and so on. But for the most part, I, I, I, I, I thought we were able to, able to handle it. You like to win. Uh, but, uh, but these, uh, these are, these are, these are tough decisions, close calls and, [00:42:00] uh, No, absolutely. And so it was, it, it’s just a very interesting process to me where, you know, in, in some, in some cases the, the arbitrator was, wasn’t familiar with, with the expression of a, of a player having a cup of coffee, which means, of course, that a player didn’t stay in the majors very long.

So, so how, so my question is, how, how challenging was that for, for you and your firm to, to have to explain or be patient with someone not understanding baseball terminology? That’s, uh, that’s always a challenge and you try to, you try to read the arbitrator courses. If, if, if the arbitrators, if, if they’re, if they’re able to continue from year to year, that’s helpful because they become more familiar, more conversant.

and, uh, one night, and over the years, I think, I think the selection of arbitrators became better. They’re all, they’re, they’re, they’re all experienced arbitrators, right? But not necessarily in baseball. And the [00:43:00] terminology in baseball and the amount of time you have, you’ve got a one hour to present a case.

And if somebody doesn’t understand what an R B I is, you got a problem and why not? But you can sort of sense this early, early on. And, uh, I, I can recall, I don’t don’t recall one, one case involving. Uh, Scott Sanderson, a a very fine young, young pitcher at that time, I believe with Montreal. Yeah. And, uh, and one of, and the agent was doing a nice job trying to personalize the client for the arbitrator’s benefit and, and explaining the Scott Sanderson, he’s from, from his hometown and he signed such and such and, and he made his debut at West Palm Beach and so on.

And the arbitrator says, man, what was the score of that game? Now he sees talking about his debut in the minor leagues. I mean, they just, just trying to personalize the case, right? The arbitrator was sort of, as it stands [00:44:00] as if this was gonna have any bearing on the case. So, you know, those, those are the kind of things, or not knowing what a cup of coffee is or an R B I and so on, but on the other hand, sometimes you’d get some arbitrators that were great baseball fans.

Right. And they have their own idea as to a player . And so I, so I sides I, you know, I, I, I didn’t, I didn’t much like that. I’d rather have the one that was less informed than the one that prided himself on being a scout or a general manager, because at that point they’re, they’re influenced by their, by their thoughts or their, their fandom.

Right. Or they did, you know, they had seen their, you know, they, if they went to a lot of ball games and they had their own, I I, I saw, as a matter of fact, you had one. One, uh, tell us, it was a Ben McDonald case with when Ben was with the Orioles, and the arbitrator was commenting about having seen, having seen him pitch last week, you know, and, [00:45:00] and, uh, when, I forget the exact thing, but if the guy pitched the shutout last week, that’s not gonna help your case.

If the, if, if the, if that’s the memory the arbitrator has. So I, you know, I think the one improvement that was made was when we were able to prevail upon the parties to increase from a sole arbitrator to a panel of three. I think that helps some, but again, you never know how their, uh, you know, how their, uh, how, how, how, how their own reviews are gonna go when the three of them get together.

If there’s one party that prevails or if they all, and that it seems invariably. Well, one of the, the stands, the decisions by a panel would always be three to nothing. They would never have a split vote by the time they turned it in. Much, much like a deadlock jury, right. That don’t, don’t want a hung jury.

So somebody has to concede, and that’s what would happen in arbitration sometimes. It, it’s a very fascinating process. It is not as antagonizing or [00:46:00] aggravating as it’s portrayed. It’s, it’s, it’s, it, it’s, it’s meant, it, it’s, it’s intended to bring about settlement, right? So the parties don’t have to go to court, but if it does go to court, it’s not all that onerous, I don’t think.

That’s what it sounds like. It certainly is a fascinating process from, from the way you, you’ve explained it. So I wanted to, I wanted to ask you, were, were there a couple of ca cases that, that you had that where, where you had to fight a little bit, a little bit harder on, or that. Or you, you had to, you know, present your, your case in a, in a certain way or that you had had a stronger conviction about maybe than, than another one?

Or are they all just, just what they are? No, I, well they’re all tailored individually. I mean, cuz it depends upon the, upon whether it’s, uh, if player going to arbitration for the first time or if he’s, uh, somebody that’s gonna be going to arbitrary, you know, a third year eligible. You know, it, it, it, and [00:47:00] depends upon how experienced the player is, how good a player he is.

Uh, you know, it, it, it, it becomes more difficult. I guess the better the player, the more challenging it is. Uh, but by the same token, if, if, if you’ve got us and then there was one year for some reason or the other, we had to do four or five. Backup catchers, you know, play, you know, players that were not high up in, in the, you know, in the, in the salary range.

And I, I don’t know why it happened that way. You know, since sometimes agents try to, or agents or the players’ association will try to, will try to make a, you know, try to make a breakthrough. Uh, if, if, if, if backup catchers haven’t been paid enough, they will continue to go to arbitration until they get an award in their favor.

And then that becomes the benchmark then for everybody [00:48:00] beyond that. And that, and that’s always, always the danger, or I shouldn’t say the danger, but that’s al always the fallout as it, uh, stands in arbitration. If somebody gets, gets a d a, uh, what, what you consider an upset decision in, in, in either way.

for the club or for the player. It influences future negotiations and future arbitration cases and so on. Because you use that as a precedent. Right? Well, so and so went to arbitration and he, he had comparable numbers and he only got this and that. Right. And so on and so forth. So, but, uh, again, you have to tailor each case differently.

Sure. And, uh, one not, um, absolutely. So, so for, as we’re, we’re scouting and and development are concerned, could you, can you talk about some aspects of, uh, of that that, that you created that are still part of the game today? There’s, so, for example, there’s the computerized reports. There’s [00:49:00] the, the two to eight, two to eight scale, and then there’s the, the human element of what a, of what a player brings to.

To their, to their side. Yeah. I get, you know, I guess my, uh, when, when, you know, when I was doing, when I was in charge of scouting and player development, I probably enjoyed that role as much as any in baseball because, uh, one you’re dealing with young players and that, you know, and you like to see them advance as there’s a great deal of satisfaction as in seeing a 17 or 18 or 20 year old player that you sign and watch him work his way through the minor leagues and go on, go on to succeed.

And so there’s a great deal of, great deal of satisfaction that way. And why not? And it’s, you know, it’s, it’s fun dealing with young, young players, uh, who have this dream. They’re not, not, not yet spoiled, uh, by, uh, standby success. So that, [00:50:00] that, that, that’s good. But I also like the process because I thought, I, I, I thought the way, I thought there were a lot of things that could be improved in scouting in particular, and the way we approached, uh, things.

And so from that, that standpoint, I tried to be creative. We were the first club to go to any kind of, uh, computerization. This is in the late 1960s. And you know, it’s hard for people to understand today, but our technology in those days was, Limited, uh, one, if you’re gonna computerize anything, you had, you had key punch.

Operators would have to have to punch out these cards and then you’d put the cards through the sorters and so on and so forth. But that was a way for us to at least be able to utilize the reports we had to a much greater degree. Before you just had file cabinets or boxes full of reports and, and, and, you know, and it was hard to ever go back and pick out what you [00:51:00] wanted.

I wanted to be able to have a system where you could take all the, all the, all the scouting information you had, and if you’re looking for a left-handed hitting outfielder, you could go to that Right. Uh, right away. Or, or if you’re looking for a stanza, if you’re looking for, Uh, for a relief pitcher on how you know how to pick that out.

And, and, and to do that you have to have some sort of system so that, you know, so that’s why we computerized initially. I also thought it was helpful from an amateur standpoint. We would do, we would catalog or computerized. All the signings throughout baseball, right. And where the player was from, whether it was high school or college and the, and, and the area and the, and his and his physical dimensions and age and, and, and, and so on.

And try to get that as sort of a reference point from a standpoint of not telling you what makes a player, cuz everybody’s individually there. Billy Wagner [00:52:00] didn’t, uh, didn’t fit the profile of being a six foot two, uh, righthander. He was a, he was a tive, lefthander, and, uh, whatnot. But it, it, it would, it would enable us where to concentrate our coverage.

In other, other words, you got a better chance concentrating your coverage here and so on and so forth. And so I, I thought that was helpful. I also found early on. Uh, when I was starting at Cincinnati, I, I, I, I would, I, you know, and I, you know, I I I, I was just sort of, sort of befuddled by the fact that the scouting reports on high school kids, uh, stand would come in and they’d be graded very simply on five or six categories in a very simple, uh, grade as, uh, you know, average or above average and so on.

Well, it is that high school kids, you don’t expect them to be average hitters at that point. And, and so that’s why then we developed grading on a present and a future basis. Well, look, the guy, the guy, [00:53:00] the guy right now, his, his velocity is maybe only average, but he’s young and he’s strong, and he’s gonna improve in his fu in his future, you know, fu his future potential is greater.

So, I, I th I think we, we instituted a system of evaluating on, on now and what you expect him to be. And of course, that’s universal today. Uh, uh, from a professional standpoint, I, I, I, I, I thought it was difficult when we were looking to make a trade with another organization and you’re looking at their prospects and you, and, uh, one of, well, here’s a report from somebody.

Uh, it’s now last year when this kid was an A ball and here’s a report from somebody else. This year he is on AA and they don’t quite, you know, so on. And I, you know, to me it made more sense to try to develop a specialist for each organization. So we in, in, instead of basing our pro coverage of all these minor league players, instead of basing that [00:54:00] up on, up on, uh, up on geography about what, what, what’s gonna involve the least travel, uh, from an expense standpoint, we’d, you know, we, we would assign somebody, uh, stand the, the Detroit Tiger system.

And, and we would look to them to be a specialist. So when we, we had a possible deal with the tigers, we could call one person. Look, you’ve seen these ki you’ve seen these kids. You saw ’em at a ball two years ago. You saw ’em last year at Aave. Seen ’em at AAA or whatnot. How he’s progressed. Uh, you know, more about their habits, their makeup, and so on.

I just thought that made a whole lot more sense. So we went to that. Um, uh, there were, you know, several other things. I thought there was a lot of, lot of wasted time and coverage, uh, stands in the, in the initial coverage after the, after the amateur draft came into effect in 1965. You know, you, you had to, instead of concentrating on just signing this, [00:55:00] this, this one player, you had to evaluate everybody.

And you had to, had, you had to, you had to establish a draft order, right? Well, to do that, you need common denominators. You have to somebody that sees ’em all. So I, yeah. That that changes the, the, that changes the coverage and the way you do it. And I thought from, from that standpoint, if you have to do it that way, you’re not gonna be able to go sign a kid and if you like ’em, go sign ’em.

You have to wait for the draft process and hope you get the rights to ’em and so on. So it doesn’t make sense for us all to be going out and seeing players at the grassroots level where you’ve got scouts from 30 organizations and whatnot. And there should be a way to simplify that and at least get these initial reports and then you use your own people to go follow up.

So as a result of that, and this is before the, this is sort of the concept of the major League scouting bureau, but, but, but before that came into being, we established scouting combines with, [00:56:00] with. Other clubs, particularly the Texas Rangers, the farm director there was Hal Keller, I, somebody I had known, known well.

And Hal and I sort of thought alike on things and we would, so we, we would, we would we, we would combine and share the initial coverage that enabled us. To do twice as much as, as we might have been able to do by ourselves. Very good. That’s that’s fantastic. Um, so, so let me get into, into trades a little bit.

So, so where, where trades are current concerned, what is the, to you, what is the mark of a success for a good trade and what, what factors have to be present there? Basically the, you know, the whole idea of making trades should be what do you need to complete your puzzle, so to speak. And, uh, you’re, you’re not, you’re not necessarily, or at least in my judgment, you’re not trying to trade to get a dollar for 90 cents.

You’re trying to trade to fill a need that you have. And [00:57:00] if that costs you, uh, more than a dollar, uh, you have to consider that. And. because that’s what’s gonna put your puzzle together. And I, I, I, I, I think too many times trades are viewed or analyzed or graded on simply, well, this player’s better than that player.

Why? Why’d they do that? Well, you did it because you had a particular need. Uh, just to put it on a more personal basis at the. End of the 1978 season, uh, we felt we had made some progress with the Astros and we, we had, uh, two holes that needed to be filled. 1 1 1, 1 was a catcher, another one was a shortstop.

And so that’s what you concentrate on. And there’s, you know, it’s not like you’ve got an extensive market. You’ve got limited choices. And if you’re gonna succeed, you better be able to find a way to make that happen. In the [00:58:00] case of, particularly of Craig Reynolds, who was a young shortstop in the Seattle organization that Costas Floyd Banister, we liked Banister very much.

He was number one draft choice in the country. Uh, but, uh, if that was what it was gonna take to get a short stop, we weren’t gonna win without getting Craig Reynolds or somebody of his caliber, we could win with the pitching we had, even if Banister was not part of it. That’s, and that’s not to diminish him.

And I suppose if somebody is evaluating, you know, who, you know, who was better, who got the most valuable over a period of time, I don’t know. That might be a toss up. You know, I, I, I frankly think we, I frankly think we did because it gave, gives us what we needed, but Banister did very well and I, I think that’s where you have to look at trades.

So how, how important was it, was it to have a good, a good working relationship with, with other general managers? Where, where you, where you, there’s, there’s trust built up there, they’re being forthright with you. They’re, you’ve got access to all the information you need. How important is [00:59:00] that? Well, well I, you know, I think, I think that’s like any other, any other, uh, group of.

People that you’re dealing with, uh, you, uh, you have to deal with ’em. There’s gonna be some relationships, uh, that are stronger than others. There’s gonna be some GMs that you’re very friendly with that are, they’re close friends. Maybe you’ve, maybe you’ve worked with them before. Uh, in the case of, uh, of acquiring Alan Ashby, we did that from Toronto, and Pat Gillick was a GM there.

And Pat, pat and I were very close friends. We had worked together in Houston, and then when I was with the Yankees, uh, I was able to, able to, to, to persuade, uh, pat to join us there. I recommended him to Toronto for the GM job. But when we had to trade for Ashby, you have to do what you have to do. And I, I think you put those other things aside.

There may may be some other general managers, you’re not particularly. Uh, as, as [01:00:00] friendly with, or may not even like, particularly for one reason or the other. Uh, but you still have to do your job and I, I, I just think, uh, you know, I, I don’t, I don’t think you succeed necessarily because of your personal relationships with somebody else.

I think it, if they’re, they’re doing their job right. Uh, they have to be independent and unbiased also. Sure, sure. Absolutely. So, so with the, the other thing I want to ask you regarding trades is how, how important is it to, to maintain. Confidentiality in, in certain situations where, where you’re working on something you don’t want it, get it getting out and, and being, and getting to the media and then, you know, possibly sabotaging anything that you’ve worked on.

Yeah, I don’t think it’s ever helpful when there’s a lot of media speculation. Uh, sometimes that changes the dynamics. Obviously other clubs are, are reading the papers. I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s, [01:01:00] uh, that’s, that’s, uh, that’s a given that existed from the day I first got in baseball. Uh, you know, you know, clubs monitor what’s going on in other cities with other teams and if you, uh, see a, a great deal of speculation someplace about the needs of a certain club or what they hope to do, that sort of raises the price and, uh, why not?

So from that, that standpoint, you’d prefer that didn’t exist? But sometimes the speculation doesn’t, uh, doesn’t occur as a result of a leak. It’s just the media and their own, their own analysis and their own views of things or, or even fans. What, you know, you know, we, we, we should trade for so-and-so. Well, I, you know, I think, I think you, you know, I think, I think all that, all, all that noise, so to speak, you have to put aside and, uh, and whatnot.

If you’ve got a, uh, you know, if, if, if, if it trades in the works, [01:02:00] I, I, uh, and it, and it leaks sometimes that can, that, that can blow up a deal. Although that, that’s rare. And, uh, from a confidentiality standpoint, I, I, you know, I guess I always refer back to the big trade we made with San Diego, uh, involving Katti and, and Finley and Derek Bell and, you know, the 13, 13 player deal at the end of the, what, 1994.

Season and, uh, the, the dynamics of that San Diego was undergoing a ownership, uh, change and, uh, and management, uh, change at certain levels. And, uh, so the, the trade took longer to consummate than what we thought it would be. And, uh, we that this was over. It started prior to the Christmas holidays and wasn’t concluded until afterwards.

And I think [01:03:00] we sat on that for about, about two weeks. And there were many people in the, in our organization and in the Potter’s organization that knew about it and it never leaked. And that, that’s a testimony to the people involved in, uh, to the, uh, you know, you know, you know, to the way it was presented and, uh, whatnot.

They, if you, essentially, if you leak things out prematurely, it’s normally harmful. Understood, understood. Well, you guys did a great job at, uh, maintaining confidentiality there, and you’re listening to the Heroes and Icons podcast with Greg Randolph in the, in the mid 1990s. You, you rejoined the Astros after Drayton McClain had purchased the team.

And you, you worked from the team from 1994 to 2011, and you suggested to Drayton that he hired Larry Dier as the team’s manager for the 1997 season. What. What qualities of, of DER stood out to you to warrant that, that recommendation? Well, I, I had known Larry, well, obviously as a, as a player, [01:04:00] uh, and, uh, then as a, uh, as, as, as a broadcaster.

And when, uh, when, uh, when, uh, Drayton, uh, and I shouldn’t say just Drayton, but when, you know, but when, you know, you know, when it became apparent that the Astros were gonna make a managerial change and said Drayton, Drayton discussed it with, with me, and, you know, and the idea, you know, there’s always the, always the, uh, the candidates at that time mm-hmm.

who, uh, who might be available, former managers or coaches or so on and so forth. And I said, well, I’ve, I’ve got, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve got one idea that’s out of the box, and. And he always seemed to like that. I didn’t present it for that reason, but I said, Larry Dier, I said, there isn’t anybody that knows our club better.

You bring somebody in from outside, uh, there’s a learning [01:05:00] period there. They have to become familiar with the talent. They have to become familiar with the personalities. There has to be an acceptance thing. And, and that in itself is sometimes difficult. Uh, is that players? Not always, uh, stands acceptable from a standpoint of somebody coming in and, uh, to some degree, I think, I think Terry Collins was, was faced with that.

I thought Terry was a good manager. The problem was he was not readily accepted by the players. Cause he had, he had not been a prominent player himself. He wasn’t well known, so on and so forth. I, I, I, I thought his baseball acumen was very good. But anyway, as it stands in Dirk’s, He had the background as a player.

Mm-hmm. , uh, he was obvi. He, he, uh, he could obviously, uh, he, he was obviously conversant with the talent, knew the personalities, wouldn’t be any learning curve, had a [01:06:00] number of other attributes. He was a pitcher. Understood pitching well, which is a major part of the game. Uh, had been a media rep Understood that aspect of it.

Right. I, I just thought he was well suited. The only thing he didn’t have was major league experience as a manager. Anybody that you bring in, you know, everybody has to start sometime. That’s true. And, uh, I, I, I just thought in our situation that he was ideally, Suited, and I think it worked out very well.

Very good, very good. So at the end of the 1999 season, the, the Astros leave the Astrodome and, and move into the new ballpark in downtown Houston. Uh, obviously now known as Minute May Park. So how did, how did the transition into a new stadium affect the team and did you have any thoughts about, about having to leave the Astrodome?

Uh, I personally had thoughts about leaving the Astrodome because, you know, that was, you know, cause of my involvement that was home to me. And, uh, you know, and well, up up at the same time I was chagrined about the state of the Astrodome by that time, [01:07:00] uh, for it. Uh, you know, we opened in 1965, uh, closed it in 1999.

So that’s, that’s a, you know, that’s a considerable period of time. Uh, you know, maintenance and upkeep had suffered to some degree. It didn’t, uh, it, it, uh, it, it did not have the glamorous. Appearance that it did initially, obviously, and that so, so, but, uh, you know, it was, it, it, uh, it was probably time to move on, particularly with, with, with a new stadium, uh, moving, uh, moving, uh, into the new ballpark downtown obviously had a tremendous effect on our team from a performance standpoint.

Sure. And, uh, one, not the, that they were, they were just, uh, shocked after playing in the spacious Astrodome and one of the pitchers looked at the Crawford boxes and, and even, even right field and, uh, one not, and it obviously affected them. It took ’em, you know, [01:08:00] it, it, you know, it took us a year to get over that, uh, you know, in 2000 was a disaster.

All the home runs that were hit and so on. By 2001, I, I think we were back on even, even keel and. You know, you, uh, he’s saying you have to adjust to the, you know, to the dimensions and to the environment. Uh, but it, but it really had an effect, uh, uh, from a playing, playing standpoint. It was just a far different ballpark than what the Astrodome had meant.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So, so you were asked for your, for, for some of your own input on, on ideas about the new ballpark downtown and, and you suggested an incline. and it made the, it made the final cut. And that was your, that was obviously became known as TS Hill, and that was in, in play from 2000 to, to 2016.

Yeah. That, that just came about by chance. We obviously, we had several meetings from a, with the, with Drayton. McLane would get his senior management staff together and the architects and the designers and [01:09:00] one ’em talk about concept and, and, uh, one of, after the, after the, after the initial seating configuration was, uh, was decided upon.

And when Drayton Drayton, uh, turned to me and he says, and uh, said, what can we do to make the interior of the ballpark. And, you know, I’ve been a student of the game and I love the history of the game. So I, I simply started reciting, uh, some of the things through, you know, through in ballparks o over the years, the monuments at Yankee Stadium, the vines at Wrigley Field, the green monster at Fenway Park on the Forbes field, so on and so forth.

And, uh, then I as, as, as I mentioned, the inclines at, at Crosley Field and going back into the early days of Fenway Park and when Duffy’s Cliff right. And, uh, well, not, so anyway, that was, that was something that, uh, interested, uh, Drayton and the, uh, and the, [01:10:00] and, and, and the designers. And in some of the early sketches or configuration of the configuration, they sort of put that.

In there and, uh, why not for the lack of some other term just labeled a towels hill. I mean, I was the one that suggested, so the hill towel’s talking about and, uh, one, not I, I, I, I frankly was surprised that it survived. I thought somebody would, would, would find reason to, you know, to, to criticize it.

Cause I, I had also included, uh, istan the. Strip between the pitchers mountain home plate, which used to be common in every ballpark back when I was a kid growing up. Right. And that was put in there because of the foot traffic by, by the catcher and the pitcher and, and, uh, and uh, so on to main, you know, to, to ease.

Ease the wear and tear on the grass. Well, uh, you know, in, in later years with the improvements in, in, uh, in STS and the by groundskeepers and take care of ballparks, that, that, [01:11:00] that disappeared and they took it out. Well, I, I thought it was sort of a novel thing. I said, this is something you could consider.

This used to be a trademark of all ballparks. Right. So, and they, so they had that in initially. And then I can recall Buck Shoal that it was gonna manage the diamond backs. And I can recall Buck being in Houston the day the Houston chronic. Had a colored print of the schematics of the, of the new ballpark that the Astros were gonna have downtown.

And that had the dirt strip and that buck saw that and that, you know, and he remembered as a kid that, and so he took that back to Arizona and they, they opened before they finished their ballpark, before we did. And then, and he, he put it in there so that it was no longer gonna be a novelty or, or a first.

So the architects and designers took it out and stuff. There were, you know, there were down a lot of things you can, you can do to make a ballpark Interesting. It still gets down, I think the fan comfort and the [01:12:00] performance, performance of the team. I, I agree. And I really, I, I personally enjoyed having Towels Hill in there.

As long as, as long as it was there. I thought it, I thought it made. I thought it made it a, a ballpark. I thought, I thought something like that gave it a lot of dimension in its own character and made it, it took it kind of away from the, you know, the, the typical, the cookie cutter ballparks that we had.

Yes. Right. Yeah. No, I, I think it’s absolutely true. I think that’s one of the one, one of the appeals of baseball every, every. Uh, every, every basketball court pretty much looks the same, right? And, uh, why not? Uh, you know, the uhand what makes baseball interesting? I, I, I, I think, uh, I think other dimensions, I mean, of going from a spacious Astrodome into Wrigley field, depending whether the wind’s blowing in or out, how that’s gonna affect the outcome of the game.

I, I think all those things add to the overall appeal of the game. And I think, you know, uh, [01:13:00] uh, in, in the older ballparks, you used to have used to have different configurations. And one of the, uh, the, the angles in the outfield at Abbott’s field that fans would talk about, you know, of course you talk about that today.

And peop you know, pe a lot of people aren’t familiar with that, right? That goes, that goes back a long ways. But I think the individual characteristics of ballparks are very interesting. Absolutely. I mean, I, I always enjoyed watching games at, whenever, whenever they were, they were on when I was a kid, you know, the, the Fenway Park and the, all the foul territory at Oakland and the Coliseum and the, just different things like that.

Interesting. Very good. So, so what was it like, let me, let’s move on to 2005 here. So what was it like for you to be a part of the, of the Astros World Series? In 2005. No, that was great Joy to see the Astros finally in the World Series and whatnot then, you know, and I think it, it, it exciting, it excited the, the town.

And one of my regrets, it didn’t last long enough, was four games, you know, over and [01:14:00] out. And, uh, well, not one that’s a, you know, that’s Stan, that’s a shame. We had games three and four here and, uh, one not, and, uh, in the entire series, I think there was a difference of what six runs in the entire series.

Right. But, uh, you know, it, it was certainly satisfying to get there and to see the way the town reacted or the city reacted and one not. And, uh, that was, uh, that was, uh, that was real privilege to be involved. Absolut. Absolutely. That was, that was a great year. Even though it didn’t, didn’t work out in our favor.

That was still, still a lot of fun to, to be a part of and Absolutely. All those, absolutely all those series. So, so you’ve seen baseball from a, a professional standpoint for over eight decades now. So what, what changes have been made to the game that, that are rules or equipment, whatever the, the baseball?

What, what, what are some changes that were to your liking and then conversely, what are some things that you haven’t really cared for? Oh, there have been so many changes. The game has grown so much since I started in 1958 [01:15:00] when, you know, when I say when I started a, uh, team had a man, a major league team had a manager and two coaches of.

First base coach and a third base coach today. I think San Francisco’s got what, 10 or 12 coaches, something like that? Uh, one, uh, so, you know, there’s been, uh, our office staff when I was at Cincinnati, uh, Stan, initially, the, uh, the entire office including it stands in those days you had to use a switch.

You had switchboard operators and, and, uh, with the switchboard operators, and the, and the ticket office personnel that were year round and one, we, we, we had a total of like, like 13 or 14 people. Uh, and the accounting department was two people. Today, accounting department’s and major league clubs are 20, 25 people.

Uh, so you, you know, the. The, the scope and the size has really grown. Uh, the one thing that has diminished are the number of scouts. And that really distresses me cuz I, [01:16:00] I, I always, always thought scouting was sort of, sort of the backbone of baseball and wanted to, you know, to find and evaluate and, and bring talent into the game.

And I’ve always had great, great fondness for the scouts and it distresses me today to see that fall by the wayside and replaced by computers and analytics. I’m all for computers from a standpoint of processing information but not making the decision for you have, you know, they giving you the information upon which to make your decision fine.

Right? But, uh, so anyway, Stan, that distresses me. I’m happy to see now some of the changes that Major League Baseball has, has initiated. I thought the game really slowed down over the last. Five or six years, a lack of action. Uh, games too long. I don’t mind the length of the game if there’s something going on, right.

Uh, but that, that, uh, and that wasn’t the case. I mean, when I [01:17:00] broke in, you, you could play, uh, you could play fairly high scoring games and, and still be, still be under two and a half hours. And you’d have games sometimes under, under two hours. Today we were, you know, going over three hours and sometimes without much, without much action.

And I, I think, I think, uh, I, I’m sorry that it’s necessary to impose a pitch clock, but I think the results will be beneficial. You, you didn’t need it in the past because the players would respond automatically. Pitchers didn’t, didn’t, didn’t take that much time between pitches, uh, and batters didn’t have batting gloves, right?

So they weren’t stepping out of the box and readjusting their, their gloves and one, so, so these tendencies that developed over the years really slowed the game down and took the action out of it. Uh, there’s gotta be action. There has to, the ball has to be in play. There’s gotta be people running the bases or people making defensive plays.

I, I, [01:18:00] I, I think there’s way too much, too, uh, too much emphasis on home runs and walks and strikeouts, and those things aren’t particularly interesting because nothing is really happening. Even, even a home run can be dramatic. But it, but, but it doesn’t bring any other action that once, once the ball’s in the seats, the batter trots around the bases and so on, fine.

But I think that, I think we need more singles, doubles, triples than stolen bases. I agree. I agree. So do you, what, what effect do you think that that, that the pitching clocks and everything else would, would have on a, on a player with, in regards to, I don’t wanna say the natural flow of the game, but just with a, with.

With a pitcher having his own, maybe having his own rhythm or, or with a, with a batter, having, having a process in the box, I think they’re just gonna have to adjust. That used to be the natural rhythm of the game, and it just, it, it just slowed down too much with it. [01:19:00] It just, it just, it just slowed down.

There’s too much walking around, stepping out of the box, so on and so forth. I don’t think that’s necessary. It, it, it, it, it is going to create a problem adjusting because of habits that have been developed. But as I said, we used to play the game without that. Without that. And I, I, I, and I just think, I just think it’s necessary to make the game more entertaining and more, and stand better.

And I, I also think the shift. I, I think, uh, outlawing the shift, uh, as a sense will help too. I think that, I think it’s gonna create more action, more balls in play and so on. I, I, I think it’s unfortunate, uh, that the players haven’t adjusted automatically to that. It, it could have been avoided if, first, if, if left-handed hitters would’ve gone the other way and hit the, hit the ball, hit the ball to left field, and why not that, that would’ve [01:20:00] had a tendency to cure the shift in itself, but that wasn’t happening.

So, uh, again, it was slowing down the game and, uh, why not? I, I think I, I think for the game to be, for the game to be successful, it needs to, it needs to more closely resemble what it was 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. Absolutely. And even, even, I, I, I can recall some of the games in, in old highlights that, that I would watch in the, you know, from games in the early 1980s, like.

Players would just, guys would just stand in the box. They would not even, they would hardly step out if, if at all. And so that’s obviously changed. You know, what’s going, going just downhill over the last 40 years. And that’s really changed with just different mannerisms and it’s not necessary. You don’t have to do that to play the game effectively.

And why of I, I think there, I think there has to be a certain pace to the game. The players used to take care of that themselves, right? Uh, once, once, once they started to [01:21:00] deviate and, uh, why not? Then? Uh, unfortunately you have to make some rule changes to bring it back into effect. I agree. And, you know, you didn’t, um, you didn’t see a whole lot of those, those other things.

I mean, the, like, the players were just, Pitcher was ready to pitch the battle, was ready to hit, and that was it. And that was it. Right? Absolutely. This is, this has been another great conversation, . I always, I always enjoy talking baseball with you and, uh, it’s, it’s really a treasure to, to have you speak with me again.

Let me, let me ask you just a couple more things. Sure. We’ll, we’ll land the plane here, so to speak. So, so who are, who are some other players that you, that you scouted or, or saw a play that you were just, that you just thought were phenomenal talents? Oh, boy. That, I mean, that covers, that’s a loaded question, , and that covers so many.

Uh, you know, and I, I have to separate those, those, those that, uh, uh, that got my attention, uh, as, as a fan. And some of them, some of them I got to. Play their [01:22:00] careers, you know, you know, continued after I got into baseball, but I, I, you know, I, I have to, if, if, if, if somebody’s asking me my, you know, my favorite, favorite players, I have to mention Ted Williams and I gotta mention Stan Muo.

I mean, tho those, those, those were players that as a fan that I really, I really enjoyed. And, uh, as stands in, uh, stands in MU’s case, he continued playing after I got in the game. And, uh, Williams continued on as a, as a, as a manager and, and so on. So, tho those were, those, those, those, those are two of my all time favorites.

Uh, and oth again, I have to have to mention others that I’ve, that I have met, that I’ve met along the way, and that I have great respect for, uh, not only as players, but for, uh, but, uh, but as gentlemen and, and, and, and the kind of people, uh, uh, uh, uh, that they, that they were to the. There are three that come to mind quickly are, are, uh, Brooks Robinson, who I’ve come to know very [01:23:00] well and had great admiration for him as a player and as a person.

Uh, Al Kline falls in the, in, in the, uh, in the same category. Bobby Dore, who I watched as a young kid in Boston and one that all, all great players, all Hall of Famers and, uh, all, all, all of them just, uh, wonderful people won. Wonderful gentlemen. I don’t mean to omit others, but those are ones that, that they stand quickly come to mind.

Sure. Uh, from a standpoint of astro talent. I hate to even name names, but I, again, I’m asked this question frequently and I would still, I, I I would still say that the greatest astro talent. That I ever saw was Cesar. I’m not saying that he was the best player. Others have accomplished more than Cesar did, for one reason or the other.

Cesar suffered some injuries and it depends [01:24:00] upon opportunities and so on. You certainly have to have to recognize Jeff Bagwell and Craig Bik and Lance Berkman and many others. Uh, but I, I I, I, I still answered the question. Suan was the, the best talent. I really thought he was gonna be Willie Mays and I, I, you know, that, that, uh, that was something others said before that.

Leo Drosha, I think, was the first, first, the first one that said that. I also have, have great appreciation for Jose Cruz. Again, for his, for his, for, for his long contributions. Just a, just a wonderful person to have on a ball club. Great talent, uh, stand best pitcher. Uh, the, the in, in astro, uh, history of, I’ve always maintained of, if I was asked to select one pitcher to, to win a certain game, my choice would be either Bob Gibson or JR Richard.

So, wow. So that, that’s, [01:25:00] that, that, that speaks to that. There, there’s so many, there’s so many others that made great, great contributions. Mm-hmm. , I, I, I don’t mean to, don’t mean to omit them. Uh, sure. Um, so, so let me ask you about, about Caesar real quick. I mean, with, he, he had, he had five total. But how, how do, do you feel, like, how un, how unfair do you feel like, like Durocher’s comment might have, might have been to him?

To put, to put the, the, the lofty praise of Willie Mays on, on him, so to speak? I, I don’t think that pressure affected czar. I, I, I, I don’t think that did him at this service. Uh, you know, he, uh, He, he broke in with, with, with, with great success. Uh, sometimes it depends upon your surroundings and, uh, you know, and he, he struggled with some astro teams that weren’t very competitive, [01:26:00] uh, for a while that may have some effect on things.

And then he had some injuries to deal with. And, uh, you, you always have personal, personal concerns and personal issues. There’s a number of things that can affect the player’s, uh, performance. And sometimes we don’t always reach a hundred percent of, uh, of our potential. And, uh, I, I, I, I, I don’t know how CS.

Feels I, but I, uh, I, I think he fell short of realizing a hundred percent, but if he had realized a hundred percent he, uh, he would’ve been Willy Mays . Okay. I would’ve, I would’ve really liked to have seen him, seen him play if that had that Joe Morgan trade not been made. And you have a different, you have a completely different makeup of the team and lineup and dynamic.

That would’ve been fun to see, right? Yep, absolutely. Uh, let me see. I’m gonna think, I’m gonna skip that one. In the interest of time, I was just going to make my own submission. If we were doing a lineup for, for the 1970s, I would submit, [01:27:00] you might not be interested in hearing it. I would submit, uh, well, j just for starters, I would submit Johnny Bench at catcher and, uh, we lost Clemente in 72, but, uh, you can certainly count those first three years of being, being in right field and just his, his talent, right?

No two good choices. No, then no doubt about it. Uh, you know, you know, go ahead and fill it in. Uh, from that standpoint, they’re so doggone money, uh, choices. Uh, you know, and I, I don’t want to go through it position by position as far as, uh, I, I, I, that’s a, that’s another conversation since I certainly wouldn’t have anybody I would take over, over bench.

There may be some others close to ’em, but I certainly sure, certainly agree with your choice, uh, there. And, uh, you know, when you start getting into other, other, Other talents out there. So I mentioned earlier, I mentioned Williams and Williams and, uh, museum. I, I didn’t, I didn’t mention Mantle and Maze.

They belong in the, in the same category. But again, you can go on [01:28:00] and on with, right. And I think that’s what makes baseball so interesting that the stand, the comparisons and, uh, one that, uh, so if you’re, if you are doing an arbitration, uh, case with, uh, stands with Maze, you’d have to introduce mantle as a comparable and, and, and compare them back and forth.

Yeah. It’s just almost impossible. Just so much great talent. Well, so who were, who were some individuals in that, in that great confluence of baseball? People that you were particularly fond of, of working with? I mean, Astros or otherwise maybe I, I mean some Astros names that come to mind, or, you know, maybe Donald Davidson, ed Wade, Bob Watson, Jerry Hunsicker.

Oh, a lot. A lot of memories there. Uh, one that, uh, one I, you know, I’ve worked with, uh, worked with. With Bob Watson and, uh, Jerry and Tim ura and Ed Wade as, uh, GMs after I came back to the, uh, to the Astros in, in 1994. [01:29:00] Enjoyed working with each of them. Still, still here from Ed Wade regularly. Uh, you know, ed had started here as, as a young PR guy, right?

In the, in the, in the 19. Seventies and, uh, he, he’s gone on, on to have a very successful career. Uh, I actually hired, uh, uh, Jerry, I think on three different occasions. Uh, hired him, uh, once for his, for his, uh, for his entry into, into, in, into baseball, uh, in, in a role in the seventies where he served a number of different things, you know, primarily as a, as a key assistant to me and a number of different, different things.

And, uh, then after I left it in, uh, 80, Jerry, uh, left two. And, uh, I hired him from my consulting practice. Uh, and uh, then he got an opportunity to go on to the [01:30:00] New York Mets and I brought him back again or helped, uh, was helped recommend. and, uh, Drayton is general manager and, uh, uh, after Bob Watson left, so I’ve, I’ve had three different, uh, three different, three different reigns and three different associations with, with, uh, with Jerry, uh, ed the same way.

I mean, he, he was a PR director here, and then he left and went to Pittsburgh. Then I hired him for Cal Smith Enterprises, and then he, uh, went on to the Phillies and then he came back here. You know, sort of like Jerry did. So, so I, I enjoyed those relationships. Really enjoyed working with Larry Dier. I, I’ve got great respect for Larry.

He’s a, he’s a, he’s a interesting guy. He’s a fun guy and a very, very, uh, very, very intelligent, articulate, keen mind. He, he’s, he’s, he’s a joy to be around. He, he is. And you know, as I, I was gonna mention before that, you know, with. With [01:31:00] all of the retired numbers and the, and the great people who have worked in the, in the Astros organization, players that otherwise, it’s, it’s very difficult to say almost impossible really to me to say Houston Astros without saying Larry Dirk in that, in that first minute.

Absolutely correct. And I, I, it’s not, I I would have to go on, I’d be remiss if I didn’t say my most endearing relationship with anybody I worked with, the Astros had to be Bill Burton. Right. You know, you know, you know Bill, uh, uh, bill and I became very close friends and stayed in touch, uh, long after he left the Astros.

And, and, uh, just, uh, he, he was a very special person. We had, we had a, it was a great working relationship between a manager and a general manager. Just ideal. And we, we had a very close personal, personal bond. Uh, I have to mention Pat Gillick. Uh, pat and Pat and I became, became close friends and, and still stay in touch, you know, so there’ve been a number of very, very, very, very meaningful [01:32:00] associations.

Absolutely. I was gonna, I was gonna ask you about the time that, that, uh, ed Wade was house sitting for you, and he had to fish your, your dog out of the swimming pool. Is that right? Yeah, ed, uh, ed in, in those days, uh, said my wife and I, uh, had gone, I think this, this over the, over, over, over, over the Christmas holidays and I think we were in, in Hawaii.

I’m not not mistaken Ed in those days. Uh, Uh, when he was a PR director, also had the, uh, also had to run the other events that were, uh, stands at the Astrodome. Right. And after baseball season, oh, there was always something going on. Uh, so Ed at that point was not married yet. And, uh, he was staying in Houston o over the holidays because he had all these events, football games and tractor poles and what have you that, uh, that he had.

That he had to handle from a scoreboard, uh, standpoint. [01:33:00] And, uh, why don’t, so he asked, asked or he like asked or he volunteered or combination thereof, uh, to house, sit for us and, and take care of our, take care of our dog. And, uh, and, uh, why don’t we, we had a pool in the backyard and, uh, the dog, uh, uh, had, had, uh, was had aged some by this time and Sure.

Slipped and fell into the pool and had, had to go, had had to go rescue her . Oh, wow. Well, that’s a good thing he was there. Yeah, absolutely. So, so lemme ask you this. How would, one, one last one. So how would, how would you want baseball fans to remember you and your career and what do you feel like your legacy is for baseball?

Oh, that, that, that’s for somebody else to answer. Craig. I, I, you know, I, I, I, I, I don’t know that I can give that a, a real answer. I, you know, I, I’ve, I’ve had a, had a great deal of fun, great deal of enjoyment, a lot of satisfaction, uh, from, from, from, uh, [01:34:00] from my years in baseball with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, Cincinnati to start with, and the two years with the Yankees were meaningful and my 35 years with the Astros and whatnot.

Then, uh, you know, I think in our conversation here, we’ve touched on a number of the things that were meaningful to me as we went on. As, as to what other people think of, think of that that’s, uh, you know, and that’s for them to judge . Oh, well, very, very good. Well, that will do it for this edition of The Heroes and Icons podcast.

And thank you to our sponsor, my friends over at Houston City Beat. There’s just something about that beat. And again, please find them on Facebook at Houston City Beat and on the web at houstoncitybeat.com. Many, many thank yous to my special guest today, Tal Smith. Um, it’s always a pleasure to spend time with you and talk baseball.

I’ll thoroughly enjoyed it. Greg, thanks over so much. Thank you. I hold you in the highest personal regard and I’m very honored by our time together. So thank you. Uh, let’s see, where was I? Where was I? Sorry about that. And then, um, [01:35:00] thank you Tal and thank you again. Everyone, uh, once again for listening.

Please, remember to rate, share, and review the Heroes and Icons podcast with Greg Randolph, wherever you might be listening. Have a great night. God bless. We’ll see you next time. Thank you.